Please name me another industry that you do not know the cost before hand. You go to the hospital and have no idea how much you will pay out of pocket. The insurance company will let you know. They come between you and your doctor. They determine what they will pay and what they won't pay. People die because of that. You defend the idea (which I also support) that our country has and continues to have a policy that we can determine another countries destiny through war, and killing of innocent people, yet you can support corporations that will kill innocent people by denying them proper medical care for the sake of profits. You want people to have a choice to purchase insurance or not, even though their costs when something happens, falls to the rest of us. What about my liberties and taxes being used for something I already have?
This is just a beginning of my responses and my quest for health care. I will respond on other issues over the next few days. One thing I will say to you is, thanks for caring enough to respond. We need more open and fair debates about issues, this is what will make us a stronger nation.
This is once again a massive issue. My first point is that my arguments are not as simple as "your wrong"... as a matter of fact I must admit... your right. Medical cost are high, tremendously high. I could not refute that somewhere out there are situations that are heart wrenching, and could cause major frustration at the insurance industry.
ReplyDeleteMy argument is that our perspective is wrong... very wrong. We are sitting under the hind end of a mule and debating the best way to deal with the crap. The concept of just moving locations is what I want to present. (Remember my argument is that the Federal Government is the problem, and my stomach turns at the idea of giving them more.)
I want to respond to a few of your comments in your response on health care.
#1 to the comparison of the local fire department and other local services. Please remember that these are LOCAL or STATE taxes or fees that I have at lest the chance of moving away from. I get to choose the Sate I live in. This is an actual "market" for citizenship. I also have a choice in my county, in city, out of city, rural or other living arrangement. I know that everyone's situation is different but that is America... I have the opportunity. The FEDERAL Government is not given the authority to provide Fire Departments for all citizen, so that's why its local. I believe that's exactly why these things were not given to the Federal Government in the first place. Citizens have a better chance and more persuasion over their local county commissioners, and State Representatives. If I start paying what I see to be unfair for my fire services, I have a course of action. The community has a course of action. Also note that we would probably agree that to give Fire Departments and trash pick up to the Federal Government would be ridiculous and they would not do a good job... But lets give them health care.
#2 You made mention of the horrible system we have in regards to individuals whom go to the ER and do not pay. Your point I believe is how that cost is pasted down to us. AGREED. Im glad we both understand that additional cost, including regulation and fraud will always fall on the consumer... ie; GM wont take the brunt of huge Union wages... the cost of the car will simply increase, when a doctors office needs to higher 2 extra associates simply to stay compliant with State and FEDERAL regulation they will not make less... the cost simply goes to the consumer.
ReplyDeleteDo you know the biggest offender of this... YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!! the next paragraph is pulled from an article expressing the cost passed onto YOU and ME because Medicare does not pay the currant market rate for care. A Medicare patient goes to see a doctor, and gets $1000 worth of treatment but the government program pays the doctor much less when he seeks reimbursement.
(The report, by consulting firm Milliman, estimated private payers paid an additional $89 billion a year in 2006 and 2007 after calculating how much physicians and hospitals might be relying on private insurance pay to make up for lower federal rates.)(this was taken from here:http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/01/05/gvsb0105.htm)
Let me make sure we are all on the same page here. We ALLOW the Federal Government the ability to forcibly take money out of our checks to pay for medical treatment when needed. And now they underpay the Doctors. Just like those whom go to the ER and never pay!!! So now they take from our earnings, and add cost to our insurance Now remember if we give them this then they must regulate how much they pay... that's how it works...What do you think they would do to the system if they paid for everything. Your not socializing health care, you are making Government employees out of every doctor.
The Government is the problem!!!
#3 You said "name one other industry were you don't know the price of your service".
ReplyDeleteGREAT POINT!!! First to make this point you must believe that health care is a service or product because this takes away from the argument of it being a "right". If it is like buying a TV or a Car then it is not a right. I would also add that if the cost was not so tremendous we would not be wanting to call it a right.
Here in lies my main point the laps in our perspective. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!
This industry was not always like this. Why did the insurance become necessary? (I argue government involvement like Medicare, Medicaid, and increased regulation... BUT THAT'S NOT MY POINT HERE)
Part of the reason the prices have gone through the roof is because of the introduction of a 3rd person in the perchance. A third party payer. (Insurance) We don't pay... we don't care anymore. The surgery could be 5000 or 10000 but we know we are only paying 2000, so who cares. This is what our current perspective is. I have grown up in an America, in a world were Insurance and the health care industry are inseparable. But I have also grown up oblivious to the health care market because of this.
IF we had personal responsibility, if the government were to leave the citizens to themselves and we did not beg or the nanny state to take care of us... we would shop for the best service at the best price. DR's would be forced to seek great employees great equipment, and do good work for a good price. It would trickle back to the Pharm companies, and back to the manufacturers of the equipment.
Why do cell phones and Tv's and computers drop in price, why is the market for them so vigorous??? Because we are personaly responsible to seek the best TV at the best price. Why do you think people spend more with Credit Cards... in theory, in that moment, its a 3rd buyer.
The market can solve all of these issues. That seems crazy because we do not have this perspective in health care. We have it in shoes, restaurants, and TV's but we let the government get involved with health care long ago.
How in the world could your answer be to give the whole thing to them?
Finally my favorite... The issue of Liberties. This I feel is an actual issue of morality. I feel that is is immoral for a government to take from me to give to another, to take from me to give to AIG, or to an individual whom is going into foreclosure.
ReplyDeleteThe concept of Liberty is beautiful. You can do as you please, you can make choices you feel are best... but when you make a mistake you CAN NOT petition your government to take from your neighbor to make up for your mistakes.
How do you lose liberties with universal health care?
Right now you can drink if you want, smoke if you want, go to Mac Donalds, sky dive, have sex with as many partners as you want, and however you want.
If MY MONEY, MY SWEAT AND MENTAL ENERGY, is forcibly stolen out of my check to pay for your Alcoholism (Drink), Lung Cancer (Smoke), obesity (Mac Donalds), Broken Neck (Sky dive), or venereal disease (sexual freedom)...
YOU DONT HAVE THAT RIGHT ANYMORE. I will not pay for your mistakes, or freedom to make them!
Its that simple. Your proposal of universal health care FORCES me to pay for others mistakes or misfortune (misfortune is unavoidable... that's why there is charity) The transfer of wealth is forced charity ie;Taxation. I don't not force you to give to my church or to the homeless in Kissimmee. You propose (with a good heart) one of the most liberty stealing concepts possible. That simple by being born an American citizen, I am tied and bound to the decisions of all others, and automatically start in the whole financially because I must pay for health care.
(This is already an issue of perspective, as money is already taken from my earnings and "saved" for my retirement, and set aside to somewhat pay doctors)
One more thing...
ReplyDeleteYou want to give all of health care to the Government. We will all pay (a Tax) into the kitty to pay for everyone. Ive just covered that they already don't pay on previous promised entitlements. Or at least they are undercutting the market. (We have already seen what they do when they say they will "take care of us")
Social Security (Entitlement) pays at best a meager monthly payment to citizens upon retirement. They take form our earnings our whole life to "save" for us. (I think we know that they broke open that piggy bank a while ago and that money really is not there) this is one of the reason we will barrow approx 1.2 Trillion dollars to pay this years federal budget.
Medicare and Medicaid (Entitlement) This is taken from our earnings and "set aside" (HAHA) to pay for medical treatment when or if needed. I already made the point that they are underpaying doctors and aiding the rising cost of our private insurance premiums.
Our Governments budget in 2010 was 3.6 Trillion!!!
Entitlements are a COST. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security (entitlements) we expect the government to pay us was %40 of that budget!!! If you add Military spending its %60 of that 3.6 Trillion.
Current Entitlements are %40 of a 3.6 Trillion dollar budget!!!
Why on earth do you think they will magically get universal health care right. This is Why they were NEVER giving the power to control health care, or half of the other programs they implement.